Discussion:
Tulip update
(too old to reply)
Etienne von Wettingfeld
2004-06-17 10:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Yoho,

The inside word is that there was an official media presentation at Tulip
today and a new website was launched:

http://www.commodore.nl/

The release of the C64 direct-to-tv is still 2nd half 2004.
--
Etienne
Riccardo Rubini
2004-06-17 11:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne von Wettingfeld
Yoho,
The inside word is that there was an official media presentation at
Well, "inside word"...Rick Balkins has been advertising it loudly and
relentlessly since yesterday :-D

Riccardo
Rick Balkins
2004-06-17 18:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Hehehe - yeah, just catching you guys attention.
Post by Riccardo Rubini
Well, "inside word"...Rick Balkins has been advertising it loudly and
relentlessly since yesterday :-D
Riccardo
Etienne von Wettingfeld
2004-06-17 19:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riccardo Rubini
Post by Etienne von Wettingfeld
Yoho,
The inside word is that there was an official media presentation at
Well, "inside word"...Rick Balkins has been advertising it loudly and
relentlessly since yesterday :-D
Oh no! Well, I haven't been paying attention. My wife works for TNT and they
do business with 2L (Tulip). She informed about the C64 console for me and
that is how I found out about the press conference.
--
Etienne von Wettingfeld [SuSE 9.1 Linux]
Six of DLoC
2004-06-17 16:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne von Wettingfeld
Yoho,
The inside word is that there was an official media presentation at Tulip
http://www.commodore.nl/
The release of the C64 direct-to-tv is still 2nd half 2004.
Ugh, what a load of bollocks. Memory sticks and MP3 players? Tulip has
absolutely no intention of making anything interesting, just leveraging the
name to sell everyday consumer goods.

S.o.D.
Dave Ross
2004-06-17 16:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Six of DLoC
Ugh, what a load of bollocks. Memory sticks and MP3 players? Tulip has
absolutely no intention of making anything interesting, just leveraging the
name to sell everyday consumer goods.
Their idea of selling players and content is a promising one, but you're
right in that they need to do something to differentiate them from all the
other companies selling mp3 players and music downloads.

Now, if their mp3 player could let you browse, sample, and download songs
all by itself, they might be on to something.
Rick Balkins
2004-06-17 18:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Ross
Their idea of selling players and content is a promising one, but you're
right in that they need to do something to differentiate them from all the
other companies selling mp3 players and music downloads.
Now, if their mp3 player could let you browse, sample, and download songs
all by itself, they might be on to something.
Yeah. They still have more stuff which they "hadn't" really discussed yet
because they are ready to announce those. But this has some grounds for
establishing a base market and certainly looking into extending the market.
In the mean time - Tulip will eventually work things out but things that
have been established definitively have been discussed. If our devs
establish a partnership (under a "mutual" agreement) - could be used to help
get some focus on the C64 but a company is definitely NOT going to produce
something for us if we ask for something. Basically if there is ideas of
what kind of products you want for a C= than great but guys don't expect
them to develop something UNLESS you are willing to buy the product. (Dave
Ross this is not strictly directed at you but to the NG)
Dave Ross
2004-06-17 19:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Balkins
something for us if we ask for something. Basically if there is ideas of
what kind of products you want for a C= than great but guys don't expect
them to develop something UNLESS you are willing to buy the product. (Dave
Ross this is not strictly directed at you but to the NG)
LOL...I should hope not. I've got so many modern doodads hooked up to my
128 I'm starting to run into compatibility issues. Not to mention the
fact that I'm running out of desk space.

Oh, if only the IDE64 at least let the machine *boot* into 128 mode!
Rick Balkins
2004-06-17 21:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Ross
LOL...I should hope not. I've got so many modern doodads hooked up to my
128 I'm starting to run into compatibility issues. Not to mention the
fact that I'm running out of desk space.
Oh, if only the IDE64 at least let the machine *boot* into 128 mode!
That's the point. The Commodore community doesn't want to buy things anymore
for their equipment. Unless the Commodore community wants to buy stuff -
there is NO reason to manufacture stuff for the C-64 or C-128. Commodore
would have done the exact same thing in 1995. The thing is the Commodore
would have done what Apple did with the II series. But this time would have
been more legitimate. Especially now. The Commodore being relaunched needs
to look into the future for the brand to live on and for the company to
return. If you want something - you have to make a choice. You can't market
stagnation. Lack of forward development breaks the philosophy of commercial
marketing. Commercial marketing of computers means that new stuff must be
available but if EVERYONE who would get a C64 already has everything they
will buy for a C64 - then the C64 market is dead. The future of a company
and a brand would then have to be in something new. Or something different.
Eventually - there is NO more room for commercial innovations for something.
That means move on for the company. A seller must always have something new
to provide to their customers. They are also not looking at just the same
old people who are still using their C= and haven't bought anything new for
years for their stuff. They are looking for people who are willing to buy
stuff because the people who keep their money and not buy products are not
econonmically viable to sell products to. You don't sell a car to a homeless
man in a cardboard box.
Six of DLoC
2004-06-18 14:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Balkins
Post by Dave Ross
LOL...I should hope not. I've got so many modern doodads hooked up
to my 128 I'm starting to run into compatibility issues. Not to
mention the fact that I'm running out of desk space.
Oh, if only the IDE64 at least let the machine *boot* into 128 mode!
That's the point. The Commodore community doesn't want to buy things
My desk full of new gadgets for the 64 begs to differ with you. If it
serves a function, people will buy it.

Make a VIC-II upgrade that's backwards-compatible, people will buy it.
Make a SID upgrade that's backwards-compatible, people will buy it.
Make a CPU upgrade that's backwards-compatible, people will buy it.
Make user-port addons that do cool things, people will buy them.
Make an HD/RAM expansion that's internal, people will buy it.
Make a CMD/HD clone for less than $300, people will buy it.
Make a floppy drive that works well with modern floppies, and people will
buy it.
Make a card that fits a PC and has an IEC port on it, people will buy it.

The potential for products is unlimited.

What's lacking in the Commodore community is not willing buyers, but good
products, priced fairly, and vendors who take the community seriously.
(And standards shared between manufacturers)

Just my $.02

S.o.D.
Niklas Ramsberg
2004-06-18 19:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Six of DLoC
Make a VIC-II upgrade that's backwards-compatible, people will buy it.
Make a SID upgrade that's backwards-compatible, people will buy it.
Make a CPU upgrade that's backwards-compatible, people will buy it.
Make user-port addons that do cool things, people will buy them.
Make an HD/RAM expansion that's internal, people will buy it.
Make a CMD/HD clone for less than $300, people will buy it.
Make a floppy drive that works well with modern floppies, and people will
buy it.
Make a card that fits a PC and has an IEC port on it, people will buy it.
I agree completely. Although I'd make that a CMD/HD clone for less
than $150. I for one am not willing to pay much more for a C=
harddrive than what I'd pay for one for my PC. And there'd have to be
an easy way to back up the contents to CD or DVD, or transfer it to a
PC (USB anyone?).

The problem (for me) with the CMD hardware is the price; I'd love to
have a SCPU, but I could never justify the expense. The C-One on the
other hand will be so much more than a CPU upgrade for the C64 to make
it very attractive to me (if it's ever released, that is).

/Niklas Ramsberg
aka
< .
(:) Bacon
< .
Michael Hunter
2004-06-18 23:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Niklas Ramsberg
I agree completely. Although I'd make that a CMD/HD clone for less
than $150. I for one am not willing to pay much more for a C=
I would tend to agree that the price is high, but I guess I thought it
was worth it when I purchased mine ($289 for a 1 gig unit that I later
upgraded with a 10,000 R.P.M 4.5 gig unit). After purchasing it, I
don't know that I would want to use my C-128 without it.

It truely is one of the best add-ons for the Commodore computers. I
love not being tied to sticking a floppy disk in every time I want to do
something with it.
Post by Niklas Ramsberg
harddrive than what I'd pay for one for my PC. And there'd have to be
an easy way to back up the contents to CD or DVD, or transfer it to a
PC (USB anyone?).
While it's not a fully Commodore based setup, there is always the option
of "DriveGhost" by Nick Coplin at:
http://www.64hdd.com/driveghost/index.html#

This allows you to connect your Commodore system and CMD hard drive to
your PC to back up the drive's contents. I haven't tried it yet myself,
but I will probably look into obtaining it once I get all of my
Commodore floppies copied onto my hard drive.

I'm working on getting every single Commodore disk that I've ever
obtained copied onto a backup floppy, then installed on my hard drive,
then archive every disk into a D64 or D81 image, and then eventually
have the hard drive backed-up onto a CD (I also have a CD-Reader
attached to my C-128). I figure that should be kind of like triple (or
quadruple) protection in-case something goes wrong with any particular
program.
Post by Niklas Ramsberg
The problem (for me) with the CMD hardware is the price; I'd love to
have a SCPU, but I could never justify the expense. The C-One on the
I'm still waiting for my SuperCPU 128 w/ 16 MB of RAM (ordered in
November of 2002). I'm looking forward to receiving it. I have a lot
of great plans for it.
Post by Niklas Ramsberg
other hand will be so much more than a CPU upgrade for the C64 to make
it very attractive to me (if it's ever released, that is).
I thought about the Commodore-One myself. It was either that or the
SuperCPU.

The Commodore-One has a lot of great features, and a lot of compelling
reasons to find it interesting. Basically, it came down to feature set,
and the "feel" of the final product.

I have become quite attached to my Commodore 128. It took me years to
get around to playing around with the 128 mode. The first 5 years or so
that I owned a 128, it spent all it's time in 64 mode. Then, somehow I
got "hooked" on 128 mode. So, now I find that I spend so little time in
64 mode that I just don't know that I could give up the 128 mode.

If the Commodore One looked like it would evolve into an "enhanced 128"
rather than a "Super C-64" I would have probably considered the
Commodore One more seriously. I guess it just comes down to personal
preference.

Arguably, the Commodore One (if it's ever released) will become more
powerful than a C-128, but it does not appear that it will run 128
software anytime in the near future. Maybe some creative hacker will
implement that as one of it's emulation modes.

With that in mind, I chose the route that would provide me with all the
features I've come to expect, while offering the extra's that I'd like
to have.

At almost $400 ($379 actual cost) it's a lot of money. But when
compared to the $250 for the C-One's main-board, plus the other items I
would have to obtain to make it fully usable (which would easily add
another $100), it is fairly comparable.

The biggest difference is that the Commodore One would be a completely
separate system, while the SuperCPU would become an extension of the
system I am already using.

Perhaps one of the greatest benefits of the Commodore-One is that it
might potentially be the last "expensive" item that you would need to
purchase. Given that it could then use standard hard drives and other
items that are commonly available, it's future cost may be considerably
lower.

If I thought it would offer the same level of compatibility with
128-mode software that I have become accustomed to, I would probably
consider it myself. But, since my 128 is already very highly expanded,
I would prefer to keep using it.

Anyway, I say all that just to express my personal perspective on the
price issue. Obviously, I wouldn't argue or complain if the price were
lower though. Most likely, there would be a lot more people interested
in these great add-ons if everyone could afford to buy them.

Of course, if the price drops to far, I'll be kicking myself for not
waiting ;-)

Michael Hunter
***@videocam.net.au
Dr. Bruce R. McFarling
2004-07-03 02:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Six of DLoC
Make a card that fits a PC and has an IEC port on it, people will buy it.
Card! PCMCIA, PCI, classic AT-bus? Make a working widget that
connects to a parallel port on one side and has an IEC port on it,
there could be a market for it.

Make a widget that hooks onto the User-Port and has a Playstation dual
memory card / controller port thingie on the other, there could be a
market for it.

Indeed, make a box that accepts IDE devices and has a parallel port
and IEC interface, with a switch between Commodore parallel port mode
and PC parallel port mode, and there could be a market for it.
Rick Balkins
2004-07-14 23:20:33 UTC
Permalink
I haven't paid alot of attention on this thread but I think a card like a
C64DTV card (with all the connectors) that plug in would be technologically
better and more superior not to mention ALOT faster. All the parallel port
is an asyncronous "8-bit" data port which operates at baud rate timing.
(9600 baud timing over 8 bit parallel)

Why such a low bandwidth port that maxs out at 115,200 Baud (115,200 BYTES
[due to 8 bit parallel] per Second)

I can GET more performance on the XT ISA slot. 8 bit parallel data bus x 8
MHz (8 Million bytes per second or in other words 64 Mbps ) - Which is
5.333333 times faster than USB 1.0/1.1.

Also we get special addressing features as well and other stuff. So even my
Commodore PC-10 will be able to make better performance of hardware
communication via the ISA slot (short) than the IEEE1294 parallel port on
modern PC.

In other words why NOT a slot. Keeps the main board clean and one could
access the ports via dongles and regular slot connectors. Hell - the
keyboard of the PC-10 then can be used as a keyboard via "C64TV Terminal
Interface" software. (Plus a set of keyboard stickers). Unless
Tulip/Commodore wish to produce new keyboards for the XT/AT & PS/2 & USB
with it already labeled. (The XT/AT should match the look and feel of the
old Commodore PC line)

The AT bus such as ISA is the same ISA used in XT are again the same used in
AT. Of course AT also provided the long ISA as well in the later years.
Post by Dr. Bruce R. McFarling
Post by Six of DLoC
Make a card that fits a PC and has an IEC port on it, people will buy it.
Card! PCMCIA, PCI, classic AT-bus? Make a working widget that
connects to a parallel port on one side and has an IEC port on it,
there could be a market for it.
Make a widget that hooks onto the User-Port and has a Playstation dual
memory card / controller port thingie on the other, there could be a
market for it.
Indeed, make a box that accepts IDE devices and has a parallel port
and IEC interface, with a switch between Commodore parallel port mode
and PC parallel port mode, and there could be a market for it.
Jim Brain
2004-07-15 01:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Balkins
I haven't paid alot of attention on this thread but I think a card like a
C64DTV card (with all the connectors) that plug in would be technologically
better and more superior not to mention ALOT faster. All the parallel port
is an asyncronous "8-bit" data port which operates at baud rate timing.
(9600 baud timing over 8 bit parallel)
SPP operates at 150kBps, or 150,000 Bytes/sec in the normal output mode.
That's comparable to 1.5million bps. A bidirectional port will
operate that speed in reverse as well. Nybble mode halves that
performance, to 75KBps.

EPP operates at 500KBps to 2MBps in both directions

ECP operates 50-100x original SPP speeds, so that implies 7.5MBPs to
15MBps and offers DMA...

Printer ports are synchronous, DATA_STROBE can be considered the CLOCK line.
Post by Rick Balkins
Why such a low bandwidth port that maxs out at 115,200 Baud (115,200 BYTES
[due to 8 bit parallel] per Second)
It's easy to get to, and does not require people open up their machines.
As well, ISA is only available on PC architecture, not Apple or Amiga.
Parallel port is/was more prevalent than ISA.

However, the real reason is speed... You don't need speed to emulate
the IEC bus. You need low latency. IEC expects certain handshakes to
happen in uS timeframes, and that is what a modern PC can ill deliver.
Post by Rick Balkins
I can GET more performance on the XT ISA slot. 8 bit parallel data bus x 8
MHz (8 Million bytes per second or in other words 64 Mbps ) - Which is
5.333333 times faster than USB 1.0/1.1.
Just a note that the theoretical max is 8*10MHz for a short board, and
16*10MHz for a long board. Note though that both speeds are purely
theoretical. If you're bit banging a IEC bus via these ports, you can;t
do DMA. If you put some logic on the ISA board to convert IEC to
parallel, you may sacrifice compatibility...

In this case, speed is less important that latency... Acquiring a DMA
lock can take 100s of uS, and using interrupts in an XT (which flow
through BIOS) can take equally long. That is just too long...

To fix, you need to ditch BIOS and use a Real time OS (RTOS) like
WindRiver, but then your PC is dedicated to the task of servicing a CBM
machine. Most people want to use an existing PC, not dedicate a PC to
the task.
Post by Rick Balkins
In other words why NOT a slot. Keeps the main board clean and one could
access the ports via dongles and regular slot connectors. Hell - the
keyboard of the PC-10 then can be used as a keyboard via "C64TV Terminal
Interface" software. (Plus a set of keyboard stickers). Unless
Tulip/Commodore wish to produce new keyboards for the XT/AT & PS/2 & USB
with it already labeled. (The XT/AT should match the look and feel of the
old Commodore PC line)
There used to be a 64 on an ISA card available. And, it would not be
too tough to build one, but most people are loath to open their PC and
install such a unit.

Also, remember that ISA is an old technology. Most newer PCs don't even
have an ISA bus

Many other platforms are left out. A lot of CBM folks went to Apple
after the 64 days, and some went to UNIX.

But, you can today buy such a I/O card for the ISA bus. They are called
IO data acquisition cards. Here is one I found:

http://sine.ni.com/apps/we/nioc.vp?cid=1111&lang=US

Jim
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations
***@jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
Laust Brock-Nannestad
2004-07-15 15:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Brain
There used to be a 64 on an ISA card available. And, it would not be
too tough to build one, but most people are loath to open their PC and
install such a unit.
Are you sure? The German mag 64er once mentioned such a card, but it was
in the April issue and, well, you can probably guess the rest ;-)


Regards,

Laust
Rick Balkins
2004-07-16 17:53:13 UTC
Permalink
I'll reply to this in IRC on Saturday.
Post by Jim Brain
SPP operates at 150kBps, or 150,000 Bytes/sec in the normal output mode.
That's comparable to 1.5million bps. A bidirectional port will
operate that speed in reverse as well. Nybble mode halves that
performance, to 75KBps.
EPP operates at 500KBps to 2MBps in both directions
ECP operates 50-100x original SPP speeds, so that implies 7.5MBPs to
15MBps and offers DMA...
Printer ports are synchronous, DATA_STROBE can be considered the CLOCK line.
Post by Rick Balkins
Why such a low bandwidth port that maxs out at 115,200 Baud (115,200 BYTES
[due to 8 bit parallel] per Second)
It's easy to get to, and does not require people open up their machines.
As well, ISA is only available on PC architecture, not Apple or Amiga.
Parallel port is/was more prevalent than ISA.
However, the real reason is speed... You don't need speed to emulate
the IEC bus. You need low latency. IEC expects certain handshakes to
happen in uS timeframes, and that is what a modern PC can ill deliver.
Post by Rick Balkins
I can GET more performance on the XT ISA slot. 8 bit parallel data bus x 8
MHz (8 Million bytes per second or in other words 64 Mbps ) - Which is
5.333333 times faster than USB 1.0/1.1.
Just a note that the theoretical max is 8*10MHz for a short board, and
16*10MHz for a long board. Note though that both speeds are purely
theoretical. If you're bit banging a IEC bus via these ports, you can;t
do DMA. If you put some logic on the ISA board to convert IEC to
parallel, you may sacrifice compatibility...
Well - the C64DTV is a "computer" not just a serial port. All I need to do
is feed a terminal interface to the CPU (like a "keyboard"). All the logic
is already there or would be there or something like that. Who says input
feeding into the Keyboard input buffer has to be serial - for example pipe
in the data parallel and simulate the C64KB using the C= PC-10 keyboard (XT
keyboard). The IDEA is that I am USING a Commodore to run the C64DTV.

Sure it is a PC but it is a Commodore PC. I'll explain further in chat this
Saturday.
Post by Jim Brain
In this case, speed is less important that latency... Acquiring a DMA
lock can take 100s of uS, and using interrupts in an XT (which flow
through BIOS) can take equally long. That is just too long...
To fix, you need to ditch BIOS and use a Real time OS (RTOS) like
WindRiver, but then your PC is dedicated to the task of servicing a CBM
machine. Most people want to use an existing PC, not dedicate a PC to
the task.
Well - the PC-10 is always dedicated to a specific task. It was back in the
ol' ye MS-DOS.
No prob - it can't be worse than MS-DOS. :-)

I'll explain why I wanted a ISA version as well. (Of course I want a PCI or
the sort as well). I wanted my PC-10 to be working with such.
Post by Jim Brain
There used to be a 64 on an ISA card available. And, it would not be
too tough to build one, but most people are loath to open their PC and
install such a unit.
Not available but DTV is.
Post by Jim Brain
Also, remember that ISA is an old technology. Most newer PCs don't even
have an ISA bus
Yeah and so was the Commodore expansion port and User Port. No big deal. The
PC-10 isn't new. So I think it be cool. ANYWAY - I didn't say that they
can't be available in PCI or other formats.
Post by Jim Brain
Many other platforms are left out. A lot of CBM folks went to Apple
after the 64 days, and some went to UNIX.
I NEVER said that you can't have other formats for it available in.
Post by Jim Brain
But, you can today buy such a I/O card for the ISA bus. They are called
I want to use the C64DTV in the PC-10 - NOT just for the Serial Port but for
C= geekiness I guess.

Controlling the C64DTV via the PC-10. It be COOL!!!!

Talk with you this Saturday - Tomorrow as of this message was written. (July
17th, 2004)

Mike Paull
2004-06-19 01:45:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:04:48 -0700, "Rick Balkins"
Post by Rick Balkins
That's the point. The Commodore community doesn't want to buy things anymore
for their equipment. Unless the Commodore community wants to buy stuff -
<SNIP>

That's an unfair generalisation! *IF* Maurice was shipping the SuperCPU,
CMD-HD and FD2000 I would have purchased them from him. When the C1 is
finished i'll buy one of them too.

I've also bought 64HDD Pro, GhostDrive, IDE64+DUART+PCKEYB, Catweasel,
Retro Reply+RRNET, RAMLINK and CMD HD (from EBay).

I'm more than happy to buy new bits for my Commodore64 and will continue to
do so if the item has some use to me.

Mike
Alan Reed
2004-06-19 03:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Paull
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:04:48 -0700, "Rick Balkins"
Post by Rick Balkins
That's the point. The Commodore community doesn't want to buy things anymore
for their equipment. Unless the Commodore community wants to buy stuff -
<SNIP>
That's an unfair generalisation! *IF* Maurice was shipping the SuperCPU,
CMD-HD and FD2000 I would have purchased them from him. When the C1 is
finished i'll buy one of them too.
Through my totally unscientific scanning of this newsgroup it seems like
there are a lot of people who would buy the stuff if they could get it. I
wonder if people would really put their money where their mouths are if,
say, SuperCPUs were suddenly available.
CTS286
2004-06-19 04:20:48 UTC
Permalink
I'd just like a cool T-Shirt with the commodroe logo!

Chris
Mike Paull
2004-06-19 04:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Balkins
Post by Mike Paull
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:04:48 -0700, "Rick Balkins"
Post by Rick Balkins
That's the point. The Commodore community doesn't want to buy things
anymore
Post by Mike Paull
Post by Rick Balkins
for their equipment. Unless the Commodore community wants to buy stuff -
<SNIP>
That's an unfair generalisation! *IF* Maurice was shipping the SuperCPU,
CMD-HD and FD2000 I would have purchased them from him. When the C1 is
finished i'll buy one of them too.
Through my totally unscientific scanning of this newsgroup it seems like
there are a lot of people who would buy the stuff if they could get it. I
wonder if people would really put their money where their mouths are if,
say, SuperCPUs were suddenly available.
Alan, I have emailed Maurice stating that I wish to be put on the waiting
list for a SuperCPU with 16mb Ram *AND* I offered to pay up front. After
that I then sent an emailing asking how long it would delay my SuperCPU
order if I also placed an order for an FD2000. I also asked if payment was
required up front, he said no. When he announced CMD HD DOS+ I also asked
to be put on the waiting list.

So, yeah, i'm willing ( and have ) put my money where my mouth is.

Mike
Alan Reed
2004-06-19 04:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Paull
Post by Rick Balkins
Post by Mike Paull
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:04:48 -0700, "Rick Balkins"
Post by Rick Balkins
That's the point. The Commodore community doesn't want to buy things
anymore
Post by Mike Paull
Post by Rick Balkins
for their equipment. Unless the Commodore community wants to buy stuff -
<SNIP>
That's an unfair generalisation! *IF* Maurice was shipping the SuperCPU,
CMD-HD and FD2000 I would have purchased them from him. When the C1 is
finished i'll buy one of them too.
Through my totally unscientific scanning of this newsgroup it seems like
there are a lot of people who would buy the stuff if they could get it.
I
Post by Mike Paull
Post by Rick Balkins
wonder if people would really put their money where their mouths are if,
say, SuperCPUs were suddenly available.
Alan, I have emailed Maurice stating that I wish to be put on the waiting
list for a SuperCPU with 16mb Ram *AND* I offered to pay up front. After
that I then sent an emailing asking how long it would delay my SuperCPU
order if I also placed an order for an FD2000. I also asked if payment was
required up front, he said no. When he announced CMD HD DOS+ I also asked
to be put on the waiting list.
So, yeah, i'm willing ( and have ) put my money where my mouth is.
I wasn't necesarily talking about you in particular. I was just commenting
on the demand there seems to be for many things out of the CMD catalog.
Mike Paull
2004-06-19 11:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Reed
Post by Mike Paull
Alan, I have emailed Maurice stating that I wish to be put on the waiting
list for a SuperCPU with 16mb Ram *AND* I offered to pay up front. After
that I then sent an emailing asking how long it would delay my SuperCPU
order if I also placed an order for an FD2000. I also asked if payment was
required up front, he said no. When he announced CMD HD DOS+ I also asked
to be put on the waiting list.
So, yeah, i'm willing ( and have ) put my money where my mouth is.
I wasn't necesarily talking about you in particular. I was just commenting
on the demand there seems to be for many things out of the CMD catalog.
There sure seems to be an interest in some of his products. And if there
was any way he could produce them in such a way they could be sold cheaper
then there would be alot more interest. However at this stage i'd be happy
just to get the stuff I wanted.

Mike
silverdr
2004-06-21 10:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Paull
Post by Mike Paull
That's an unfair generalisation! *IF* Maurice was shipping the
SuperCPU,
Post by Mike Paull
CMD-HD and FD2000 I would have purchased them from him. When the C1 is
finished i'll buy one of them too.
I wasn't necesarily talking about you in particular. I was just commenting
on the demand there seems to be for many things out of the CMD catalog.
My 2 pennies:

As of today

The products are:

a) overpriced
b) unavailable

The vendor is:

a) barely reachable
b) with bad track of records concerning the back orders



My impression is then:

a) changing the vendor
b) cutting down the prices by at least 30%

is what is needed to quickly sell some 20-50 units of different CMD
products and keep the sales at the level of 10 - 30 units per year for a
few years to come...

Sure it's not a viable business but neither is keeping the rights and
NOT distributing the products, is it?


Maurice, please give the damn rights away to the people who (still) have
passion to actually make the products. You don't believe you get
extremely rich with them one day, do you? Don't let the good work perish
and fade away like many others did!


My estimates are wild, uneducated guesses. In no circumstances may I be
liable for any losses arising from usage of the given data... END OF
DISC(ONNECT)LA(I)MER!
Alan Reed
2004-06-21 15:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by silverdr
As of today
a) overpriced
b) unavailable
a) changing the vendor
b) cutting down the prices by at least 30%
is what is needed to quickly sell some 20-50 units of different CMD
products and keep the sales at the level of 10 - 30 units per year for a
few years to come...
The CMD stuff has always been too expensive for all but the hardcore
enthusiast. Now, with PC prices where they are you can almost buy a whole
PC system for the price of a SCPU or Ramlink. Of course, that's irrelevant
to the Serious Commodore Fan, but new users do look at it that way, they
think the prices for that stuff are insane.

On the other hand, if that's what is costs to produce the hardware, then
that's what it costs. I don't have any idea what it actually costs to
manufacture, say, a SCPU.
silverdr
2004-06-21 15:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Alan Reed wrote:

[...]
Post by Alan Reed
Post by silverdr
b) cutting down the prices by at least 30%
is what is needed to quickly sell some 20-50 units of different CMD
products and keep the sales at the level of 10 - 30 units per year for a
few years to come...
The CMD stuff has always been too expensive for all but the hardcore
enthusiast. Now, with PC prices where they are you can almost buy a whole
PC system for the price of a SCPU or Ramlink. Of course, that's irrelevant
to the Serious Commodore Fan, but new users do look at it that way, they
think the prices for that stuff are insane.
On the other hand, if that's what is costs to produce the hardware, then
that's what it costs. I don't have any idea what it actually costs to
manufacture, say, a SCPU.
I find it hard to believe that this could be the cost but I don't say
the prducts have to be sold for how much it costs to produce it! I might
believe that this is the price that justifies the involvement of a busy
person. Anyway - one doesn't run the business to cover the cost only.
That's for sure but... where is this business, huh?!
Peter van Merkerk
2004-06-21 16:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Reed
Post by silverdr
As of today
a) overpriced
b) unavailable
a) changing the vendor
b) cutting down the prices by at least 30%
is what is needed to quickly sell some 20-50 units of different CMD
products and keep the sales at the level of 10 - 30 units per year for a
few years to come...
The CMD stuff has always been too expensive for all but the hardcore
enthusiast. Now, with PC prices where they are you can almost buy a whole
PC system for the price of a SCPU or Ramlink. Of course, that's irrelevant
to the Serious Commodore Fan, but new users do look at it that way, they
think the prices for that stuff are insane.
On the other hand, if that's what is costs to produce the hardware, then
that's what it costs. I don't have any idea what it actually costs to
manufacture, say, a SCPU.
Something to consider is that the price of mass produced consumer
electronics (like PCs) is incredibly low.

The problem with products for a computer that became obsolete more than
15 years ago is that they target a very small nice market. And when it
comes to electronic products, low volume means high prices and therefore
comparatively low value-for-money. Low volume means no discounts when
ordering parts. The parts themselves are often obsolete which may make
them more expensive (uninteresting market, little competition, few
customers over which the fixed costs can be spread). Also the assembly
itself becomes more costly; if you are only going to produce 100 units a
year, there is no point in trying to automate or to outsource production
to a third world country to keep the per unit cost down.

Even if the prices were cut by 50% the potential market would be still
very small. I don't know what kind of margin Maurice makes on CMD
products (probably not enough for him to take his CMD business more
seriously), but don't expect prices similar to PC accessories. Now if
someone were to order let's say 1 million SCPU's, then they shouldn't
cost more than 25 Euro.

--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
Jim Brain
2004-06-18 03:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Rick Balkins wrote:

I'll go on record stating that I believe Tulip wants to bring the
Commodore name out of mothballs, but has no real interest in the
retro-market per se. However, Ironstone does, and it is in the best
interest of Tulip to foster that relationship, as part of the brand
identity in the technology space is the venerable 64 and it's siblings.
Ironstone, a brand licensee, seems genuinely interested in providing
products for the retro space, as far as they feel there is money to be
made in this market.

My hope is that Ironstone cultivates some relationships with a few key
members of the community. Based on Darren's speech during the
presentation, Ironstone is comprised of some CBM enthusiasts (and you
know they'd have to be biased towards the platform to spend such effort
on it, being a somewhat risky venture and all). As a result, maybe these
key people already work for Ironstone. If not, gathering information
via this channel or web forums is fraught with risk, so I hope they
secure some astute member(s) to improve the signal to noise ratio of
such information.

Obviously, the market is fickle and "cheap" (I say that in the best
possible way). D2TV, for example, can penetrate multiple markets
(novelty, retro, technical geek, etc.). However, proposed products must
be cost effective in the context of this platform. I think CMD
products, for example, are designed well, but the expense of that design
causes many people to pass on purchasing. Other products favor low cost
over quality, but the more technically astute in this community will pan
such products at a moment's notice, generating bad publicity that isn't
always a good thing for the product introduction. Selling old games for
cheap rates seems pretty safe, as do emulator sales.

Ironstone, I assume, understands that they need to cultivate the
relationship with the Commodore community in order to win respect. Many
are understandably skeptical about the re-emergence of Commodore, the
proposed product offerings by Ironstone, and the "committment" of this
company to the brand/platform when the going gets rough.

We, as a community, also need to realize that the re-emergence of
Commodore is a double edged sword. Since Commodore International ceased
to exist as a viable entity, the platform permutations froze in time, so
to speak. We all knew the finite list of machines, the finite list of
variations, the finite list of peripherals. Sure, third party products
came and went, but a purist could know all about the Commodore line.
Developers could write software that would work on all Commodore 8-bit
variants.

Now that Ironstone and Commodore are introducing new products within the
brand, those assumptions are no longer valid. I know there are three
camps of Commodore enthusiasts. A minority group wants to
expand/enhance their CBM unit using any/all methods to bring the
platform up to current use. Another minority scoffs at the idea of
anything "new", and will not accept anything from a new "Commodore"
company. The majority are probably more pragmatic. They'll buy a new
peripheral or main unit if the price and value are there. This is most
likely the audience Ironstone will target. I suppose it relates to the
old adage, "Be careful what you ask for", as many wanted Commodore to
come back from the grave, and now they have. Is it too late? What
product ideas would offer them the lowest risk and highest potential
reward? What is sacred about our pltform, and what can be replaced
without much dispute?

Jim
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations
***@jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
Rick Balkins
2004-06-18 04:34:48 UTC
Permalink
They will listen both Tulip and their partners. Remember that Ironstone is
one part of the circle they are talking about but you and I and others a key
factors to it besides the new people. As they said - it is a family.
Somewhat a pun but I'll go with some ideas about how we connect. What you
mentioned below. I have strategized some ideas of newer more serious
"hardware products". They are at least building a base for some capital and
some guidance.

Let's say we develop a USB adaptor and voila - the wonderful line of those
products they have become a reality to Commodore users - yes US. Now, I
believe that us pragmatic people may fine one idea I mention to be a piece
of upfront hardware which will OPEN many doors for us both in content and in
hardware. The C-One is one but an idea I might be willing to discuss with
you if you wish not to publicly disclose details on. I might have told you
but I not sure. I have to double-check my logs. Actually Tulip does have
interest in the retro-market but mostly through partners that have dedicated
business involvement but they would be able to assist in certain level.
Especially in culminating and centralizing and their marketing capacitance.
They can get a hold of companies pretty easily.

I have no disagreements with you and why sales of certain products is SO
limiting has been price tag. As I said - we have alot of projects but not
alot of "product". That means, we need some level of cost-effective quanity.
I like to see things move forward but link us into the bigger picture in a
mutually beneficial way and there is still room for that.

They are willing to work with people who is flexible and can adapt. I
believe the developers can very well adapt and the people who make demos and
other free stuff ain't going to be shut down. In fact Tulip can work with
independent developers and work out partnerships. The www.commodoreworld.com
is a centralization point. Like a central "super-gateway" to all of us and
there partners. What it takes is a willing to talk and work things out.
Post by Jim Brain
I'll go on record stating that I believe Tulip wants to bring the
Commodore name out of mothballs, but has no real interest in the
retro-market per se. However, Ironstone does, and it is in the best
interest of Tulip to foster that relationship, as part of the brand
identity in the technology space is the venerable 64 and it's siblings.
Ironstone, a brand licensee, seems genuinely interested in providing
products for the retro space, as far as they feel there is money to be
made in this market.
My hope is that Ironstone cultivates some relationships with a few key
members of the community. Based on Darren's speech during the
presentation, Ironstone is comprised of some CBM enthusiasts (and you
know they'd have to be biased towards the platform to spend such effort
on it, being a somewhat risky venture and all). As a result, maybe these
key people already work for Ironstone. If not, gathering information
via this channel or web forums is fraught with risk, so I hope they
secure some astute member(s) to improve the signal to noise ratio of
such information.
Obviously, the market is fickle and "cheap" (I say that in the best
possible way). D2TV, for example, can penetrate multiple markets
(novelty, retro, technical geek, etc.). However, proposed products must
be cost effective in the context of this platform. I think CMD
products, for example, are designed well, but the expense of that design
causes many people to pass on purchasing. Other products favor low cost
over quality, but the more technically astute in this community will pan
such products at a moment's notice, generating bad publicity that isn't
always a good thing for the product introduction. Selling old games for
cheap rates seems pretty safe, as do emulator sales.
Ironstone, I assume, understands that they need to cultivate the
relationship with the Commodore community in order to win respect. Many
are understandably skeptical about the re-emergence of Commodore, the
proposed product offerings by Ironstone, and the "committment" of this
company to the brand/platform when the going gets rough.
We, as a community, also need to realize that the re-emergence of
Commodore is a double edged sword. Since Commodore International ceased
to exist as a viable entity, the platform permutations froze in time, so
to speak. We all knew the finite list of machines, the finite list of
variations, the finite list of peripherals. Sure, third party products
came and went, but a purist could know all about the Commodore line.
Developers could write software that would work on all Commodore 8-bit
variants.
Now that Ironstone and Commodore are introducing new products within the
brand, those assumptions are no longer valid. I know there are three
camps of Commodore enthusiasts. A minority group wants to
expand/enhance their CBM unit using any/all methods to bring the
platform up to current use. Another minority scoffs at the idea of
anything "new", and will not accept anything from a new "Commodore"
company. The majority are probably more pragmatic. They'll buy a new
peripheral or main unit if the price and value are there. This is most
likely the audience Ironstone will target. I suppose it relates to the
old adage, "Be careful what you ask for", as many wanted Commodore to
come back from the grave, and now they have. Is it too late? What
product ideas would offer them the lowest risk and highest potential
reward? What is sacred about our pltform, and what can be replaced
without much dispute?
Robert Bernardo
2004-06-17 16:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Six of DLoC
Memory sticks and MP3 players? Tulip has
absolutely no intention of making anything interesting, just leveraging the
name to sell everyday consumer goods.
Actually, without seeing/hearing the actual conference, the plan
sounds realistic for keeping the company solvent, growing, and pushing
forward the Commodore name. They focus on money-making, mainstream
strategies, while providing for niche markets (like us!).
After attending Amiga computer shows since 1999 and listening to
all the dreamy hype from those keynote speeches, I find their plan to be more
real-world.

Ducking from Amiga flames,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Rick Balkins
2004-06-17 18:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bernardo
Actually, without seeing/hearing the actual conference, the plan
sounds realistic for keeping the company solvent, growing, and pushing
forward the Commodore name. They focus on money-making, mainstream
strategies, while providing for niche markets (like us!).
After attending Amiga computer shows since 1999 and listening to
all the dreamy hype from those keynote speeches, I find their plan to be more
real-world.
This is part of the "overall" plans. They can't speak much in terms of
products for Commodore 64/128 because NONE of us ever try to be helpful. We
ask and complain that they don't make something strictly for us but we never
told them what we want. How can they make money and be a solvent and growing
business making stuff for C= 8 bits and NO ONE would even buy at all. What
would YOU want in particular is what needs to be told to a company and that
would be something to think about.

Basically put your money where your mouth is.
Robert Bernardo
2004-06-18 01:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Balkins
They can't speak much in terms of
products for Commodore 64/128 because NONE of us ever try to be helpful. We
ask and complain that they don't make something strictly for us but we never
told them what we want.
This is an unfair statement, Rick Not all C= users gripe,
complain, and whine.
Post by Rick Balkins
How can they make money and be a solvent and growing
business making stuff for C= 8 bits and NO ONE would even buy at all.
Rick, you don't know how many C= related companies/projects I have
supported in the past few years. And I will continue doing so in the
future.

Putting my money where my mouth is,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Rick Balkins
2004-06-18 04:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bernardo
This is an unfair statement, Rick Not all C= users gripe,
complain, and whine.
True... but when you take the noise ratio on the majority - the majority
ultimately speaks for the whole often or whoever can make the dominate
noise. You see - this is where things become a case that affects. Certainly
not all but if the majority that are active gripe alot than you have a
factoring situation.
Post by Robert Bernardo
Rick, you don't know how many C= related companies/projects I have
supported in the past few years. And I will continue doing so in the
future.
Putting my money where my mouth is,
I probably don't and am happy to see there is you and some others. I hope to
see less noise in terms of gripe, complain and whining. Certainly this will
be an active topic this Saturday and following weeks. I hope to see more
people like you. Which is what I really like to see and people who can
utilize things. Tulip provides a way of getting us into public light and
helps in areas of commercial interest as well as non-commercial interest. We
can benefit from them if we use what they provide in our favor and also help
them. Creating a mutual relation. We are a family/community.
Rick Balkins
2004-06-17 18:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Six of DLoC
Ugh, what a load of bollocks. Memory sticks and MP3 players? Tulip has
absolutely no intention of making anything interesting, just leveraging the
name to sell everyday consumer goods.
At this time because any "really" interesting products that doesn't exist
means more R&D costs and unless you have ALOT of money coming in just from
that brand - it will be awhile before they do that. They still hadn't
mentioned everything.
Clockmeister
2004-06-19 23:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Six of DLoC
Post by Etienne von Wettingfeld
Yoho,
The inside word is that there was an official media presentation at Tulip
http://www.commodore.nl/
The release of the C64 direct-to-tv is still 2nd half 2004.
Ugh, what a load of bollocks. Memory sticks and MP3 players? Tulip has
absolutely no intention of making anything interesting, just leveraging the
name to sell everyday consumer goods.
Yep, that is all the C= brandname will ever be to them, leverage. An obvious
business decision from a marketing perspective. even if others here were
hoping for more it isn't going to happen.

Cheap generic Chinese made consumer items with a C= badge slapped on them is
all it will amount to... even if others here were hoping for more it isn't
going to happen.
Patrick Borer
2004-06-17 23:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne von Wettingfeld
Yoho,
The inside word is that there was an official media presentation at Tulip
http://www.commodore.nl/
Well, I don't like their modified logo. The old Commodore logo was
fine, I don't think the italicised C is improving it.

Patrick Borer
Rick Balkins
2004-06-18 00:53:17 UTC
Permalink
They have the right to utilize all the marks even the original marks and you
can expect the original mark to still be used. Actually the mark still looks
cool. Nevertheless - you will expect the variance of use will be in the
market usage. The original marks may be used in products focused towards
business products. Meaning - say a "business computer". Given time - you may
see that. Given a range of products under the Commodore brand. Both for
consumer as well as business.
Post by Patrick Borer
Well, I don't like their modified logo. The old Commodore logo was
fine, I don't think the italicised C is improving it.
Patrick Borer
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