The C64 is much better than the ATARI 800!!!

[Ben Tuddy]

Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???

The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.

Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???

The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.

Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

[Golan Klinger]

Do not feed the troll, please.

[proteanthread]

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

If we did, then you'd go dumpster diving for a free Atari. Nice try.
If you want an Atari that bad, there's always eBay!

[Angry Dove]

In article <5e574b93-55a3-44a3-a132-f9c5895bd768
@g19g2000yql.googlegroups.com>, ***@rtdos.com says...

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

STAR RAIDERS!!!

[Vidar Olavesen]

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

Maybe because I want to play a proper version of M.U.L.E., Rescue on
Fractalus, Ballblazer and a bunch of others ... Dropzone was not better on
the C64 ... The explosions in the Atari version is beautiful. I have C64
too, but Atari's have soul ...

[lyricalnanoha]

Trophy collector group deleted.

Post by Vidar Olavesen

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

Maybe because I want to play a proper version of M.U.L.E., Rescue on
Fractalus, Ballblazer and a bunch of others ... Dropzone was not better on
the C64 ... The explosions in the Atari version is beautiful. I have C64
too, but Atari's have soul ...

I'd take anything so long as it's up to the task. And depending on what
I'm doing, that could be just about any 8-bitter.

For some things the better machine is the Atari 800, for some things the
C64, and for some things the Apple ][.

(Though, imho, the VIC-20 might have been a good game system for its day,
and certainly it stomped the Atari 2600 flat, but as a computer, it was a
joke.)

-uso.

[Jeremy J Starcher]

Post by lyricalnanoha
(Though, imho, the VIC-20 might have been a good game system for its
day, and certainly it stomped the Atari 2600 flat, but as a computer, it
was a joke.)

Hey!

The VIC-20 was a MAJOR step up from my first computer ... a home-built
8008 machine with 128 BYTES of RAM that used a paper TTY and punchtape
for I/O.

I learned to code writing programs that did multiplication and long
division while showing all of the work on screen. ;) Made homework easy.

(It was also the only machine I've ever destroyed through software alone
-- was trying to write out Morse Code practice tapes and figured I'd just
toggle the data-write line of the cassette port. No smoke, but it quit
working.)

Also learned 6502 assembly on that machine.

That said, the Atari 800XL quickly became my second love and getting used
to "Atari Strings" set me up quite nicely for doing weird things in C.

When I hit high school the Atari became my 'graphing calculator' for
calculus.

[winston19842005]

Post by Jeremy J Starcher

Post by lyricalnanoha
(Though, imho, the VIC-20 might have been a good game system for its
day, and certainly it stomped the Atari 2600 flat, but as a computer, it
was a joke.)

Hey!
The VIC-20 was a MAJOR step up from my first computer ... a home-built
8008 machine with 128 BYTES of RAM that used a paper TTY and punchtape
for I/O.
I learned to code writing programs that did multiplication and long
division while showing all of the work on screen. ;) Made homework easy.

How'd you fit *all* of the work on that tiny screen?
Oh, never mind. I see the ";)" now...

[Jeremy J Starcher]

On 4/15/09 1:12 PM, in article

Post by Jeremy J Starcher

Post by lyricalnanoha
(Though, imho, the VIC-20 might have been a good game system for its
day, and certainly it stomped the Atari 2600 flat, but as a computer,
it was a joke.)

Hey!
The VIC-20 was a MAJOR step up from my first computer ... a home-built
8008 machine with 128 BYTES of RAM that used a paper TTY and punchtape
for I/O.
I learned to code writing programs that did multiplication and long
division while showing all of the work on screen. ;) Made homework easy.

How'd you fit *all* of the work on that tiny screen? Oh, never mind. I
see the ";)" now...

Hey ... it was 3rd and 4th grade homework ... didn't take a lot of space.

Hardest part was keeping track of the decimal point. Ended up using
inverse video to mark the decimal part.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by Jeremy J Starcher

Post by lyricalnanoha
(Though, imho, the VIC-20 might have been a good game system for its
day, and certainly it stomped the Atari 2600 flat, but as a computer, it
was a joke.)

Hey!
The VIC-20 was a MAJOR step up from my first computer ... a home-built
8008 machine with 128 BYTES of RAM that used a paper TTY and punchtape
for I/O.

ngh.... I wonder how a kid in early grades has actually handled a
front-panel, toggle-switch early micro... (you seems to refer to the
Kenbak-1)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[c***@gmail.com]

Post by dott.Piergiorgio
ngh.... I wonder how a kid in early grades has actually handled a
front-panel, toggle-switch early micro... (you seems to refer to the
Kenbak-1)

The Kenbak wasn't an 80xx machine; it had a custom TTL CPU. Most
likely he's talking about one of the various S100 systems back in the
mid-late 70s.

[Jeremy J Starcher]

Post by dott.Piergiorgio
ngh.... I wonder how a kid in early grades has actually handled a
front-panel, toggle-switch early micro... (you seems to refer to the
Kenbak-1)

The Kenbak wasn't an 80xx machine; it had a custom TTL CPU. Most likely
he's talking about one of the various S100 systems back in the mid-late
70s.

Correct, it was an S100 based machine. Don't remember what it was, but
it was a single-board machine with simple I/O ports on board. Built-in
ML monitor that allowed hex to be keyed in through the keyboard and you
could 'save' by doing a hex dump with the tape puncher on. Patch the
binaries by splicing tape ....

I only used toggle switches to program once ... that was on a single-step
PROM burner. Glad I missed that particular era of computing.

[winston19842005]

Post by Jeremy J Starcher

Post by dott.Piergiorgio
ngh.... I wonder how a kid in early grades has actually handled a
front-panel, toggle-switch early micro... (you seems to refer to the
Kenbak-1)

The Kenbak wasn't an 80xx machine; it had a custom TTL CPU. Most likely
he's talking about one of the various S100 systems back in the mid-late
70s.

Correct, it was an S100 based machine. Don't remember what it was, but
it was a single-board machine with simple I/O ports on board. Built-in
ML monitor that allowed hex to be keyed in through the keyboard and you
could 'save' by doing a hex dump with the tape puncher on. Patch the
binaries by splicing tape ....
I only used toggle switches to program once ... that was on a single-step
PROM burner. Glad I missed that particular era of computing.

I had to use toggle switches to program the boot sequence on a Pr1me mini
and Data General Nova, I believe. I think the Eclipse model didn't require
that.

We had paper tape readers on the PDP-11/70 and maybe the 11/44's. Never
needed to use them, fortunately.

[c***@gmail.com]

Post by Ben Tuddy
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.

I'm partial to the PDP-1, myself.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.

The ATARI had the better graphics. Well AFAIK 256 colors instead of the
16 of a C64. You cannot do

with a C64... Well after seeing this video, I thought it looked way
better when I saw it on an ATARI back then. Looks like the C64 could do
that too now

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???

I guess it's that you buy what your best friend already has. If he has
his new ATARI and shows you what it can do, and none of the other guys
you know have a C64, you won't buy a C64 then.

Post by Ben Tuddy
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

Coz you came and picked it up. ;-)

F'up alt.0d (no one reads there).

[Trevor Holyoak]

There were two games that a couple of friends had that I liked on the
C64 that weren't available on the Atari, but that was the only thing the
C64 ever had going for it... ;)

- Trevor

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

[john]

Considering the 800 was around 5 years before the C64....

Graphically I'd say it's better than the C64 is some areas...

[d***@ucd.ie]

Post by john
Considering the 800 was around 5 years before the C64....
Graphically I'd say it's better than the C64 is some areas...

In the area of "being better graphics for 1977 than C64 graphics were
for 1982"?

[lyricalnanoha]

Post by d***@ucd.ie

Post by john
Considering the 800 was around 5 years before the C64....
Graphically I'd say it's better than the C64 is some areas...

In the area of "being better graphics for 1977 than C64 graphics were
for 1982"?

Potentially granting that, how was the sound chip compared to the SID?

The Apple had nothing but a speaker toggle, though the AY-8910
daughtercards are nice.

-uso.

[Edward S. Baiz Jr.]

The bigger question is why are you here? I bought a C64. Owned it for a few
months and then gave it away. True, it does play games really well (the XE
system is just as good), but it is not a good computer. Ask any computer
expert to look at the two and they will tell you that the C64 is just a hack
and that the good is a true computer. Plus trying to enter things into the
C64 is just so clumbersome. I will stick with my Atari.

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???

[winston19842005]

Post by Edward S. Baiz Jr.
The bigger question is why are you here? I bought a C64. Owned it for a few
months and then gave it away. True, it does play games really well (the XE
system is just as good), but it is not a good computer. Ask any computer
expert to look at the two and they will tell you that the C64 is just a hack
and that the good is a true computer. Plus trying to enter things into the
C64 is just so clumbersome. I will stick with my Atari.

Because we are smarter than Atari users in that we know to trim the troll's
newsgroup before replying...

So, "the good is a true computer"? Where can I find a "good"?

[Bill Buckels]

I bought a C64. Owned it for a few months and then gave it away.

Very generous. I still have my first C64 and it still works.

Ask any computer expert to look at the two and they will tell you that the
C64 is just a hack and that the good is a true computer.

"winston19842005" <***@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote:

So, "the good is a true computer"? Where can I find a "good"?

The same place you find a computer expert... in comp.sys.cbm. I am a
computer expert and I do not believe the PET, VIC20, C64, C128 or AMIGA and
other cbm machines are hacks any more than I believe that Jack Tramiel is a
hacker except in the nicest way. I am also an authority on Apple II's and
IBM-PC's and have been making my living by being a computer expert since
shortly after the C64 was introduced.

I think what the OP meant was "Ask a hack to look at the two and they will
just tell you anything. Any true computer expert will tell you the C64 is
good."

Plus trying to enter things into the C64 is just so clumbersome.

How could you possibly remember? You gave yours away long ago.

What kind of things I wonder... if you are talking about entering BASIC
programs into a C64, my daughter was keying-in her own into her C64 when she
was 6 years old unassisted by anyone, and she also used a real 4.77 MHZ
IBM-PC and MS-DOS with the same proficiency and joy. She is a psychologist
now specializing in personalities and statistics as well as a computer
expert.

The last time we talked about the old computers and the new computers which
was recently it was all good for both of us although she is not preoccupied
with collecting old commodores and apples as I am.

Glad you like your Atari.

Bill

[Sam Gillett]

Post by winston19842005
So, "the good is a true computer"? Where can I find a "good"?

Don't waste your time looking for a "good". Look for a "best" instead. The
best is much better than the good.

What else can I add to the confusion created by someone replying to a 2 week
old troll?

[Tom Lake]

Post by Sam Gillett

Post by winston19842005
So, "the good is a true computer"? Where can I find a "good"?

Don't waste your time looking for a "good". Look for a "best" instead.
The best is much better than the good.

What about the "better"? 8^)

Tom Lake
--
Our family (Beaulac) motto:
Impavidum ferient ruinae
Dangers shall strike me unappalled.

[Sam Gillett]

Post by Tom Lake

Post by Sam Gillett

Post by winston19842005
So, "the good is a true computer"? Where can I find a "good"?

Don't waste your time looking for a "good". Look for a "best" instead.
The best is much better than the good.

What about the "better"? 8^)

Although better is better than good, best is better than better. By all
means, best is the very best!

Except, the only one that might be better than the "best" is the "excellent"
for what can be better than excellent?

If anyone is not confused yet, I will replace the batteries in my thesaurus
and return shortly to take the confusion level to the highest level
attainable by mere mortals.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Post by Edward S. Baiz Jr.
the C64 is just a hack

So are all the computers of that era. With irrealistic deadlines,
without factory standards (for the low-price segment of the market)
and without the possibility to fix early software/hardware problems
with just a firmware update over the Internet, it seems incredible to
me that these computers work(ed) at all. This only proves the
competence of the engineers that developed them.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Joe Forster/STA

Post by Edward S. Baiz Jr.
the C64 is just a hack

So are all the computers of that era. With irrealistic deadlines,
without factory standards (for the low-price segment of the market)
and without the possibility to fix early software/hardware problems
with just a firmware update over the Internet, it seems incredible to
me that these computers work(ed) at all. This only proves the
competence of the engineers that developed them.

True. But it was a different time. Internet was not available for the
masses and so these computers not designed for a firmware update. Though
it was possible to burn a different firmware on an eprom.

As I have to soldering skills a friend did this for me in about 1987 for
my C64, and I had the original, and a customized firmware, including turbo
loader for floppy and tape on a second PROM and a switch (drilled a hole
into the chassis) so I could "boot" one of them at a time.

The Amiga (1000) then came with the firmware on floppy (Kickstart) so
bugs were fixed and functions added. Still no internet for regular people
available. But you could get the floppies from a store (or friends, along
with other cracked programs :-).

BBS were around already, and few people also had modems or those acoustic
couplers and I'm sure you could also download firmware there.

F'up2 comp.sys.cbm.

[Joe Forster/STA]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Joe Forster/STA
without factory standards (for the low-price segment of the market)

This, of course, should read _industrial_ standards. Sorry, it was a
long day. ;-)

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
The Amiga (1000) then came with the firmware on floppy (Kickstart) so
bugs were fixed and functions added.

That's not fair to have the firmware/operating system on a non-read-
only and/or easily replaceable media. ;-)

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Joe Forster/STA

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Joe Forster/STA
without factory standards (for the low-price segment of the market)

This, of course, should read _industrial_ standards. Sorry, it was a
long day. ;-)

Everybody knows what you meant. :-)

Post by Joe Forster/STA

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
The Amiga (1000) then came with the firmware on floppy (Kickstart) so
bugs were fixed and functions added.

That's not fair to have the firmware/operating system on a non-read-
only and/or easily replaceable media. ;-)

You might even call it smart?

Well they "fixed" it later and removed that on the Amiga 500 and 2000. *g*

[Bill Kendrick]

Post by Joe Forster/STA
So are all the computers of that era. With irrealistic deadlines,
without factory standards (for the low-price segment of the market)
and without the possibility to fix early software/hardware problems
with just a firmware update over the Internet, it seems incredible to
me that these computers work(ed) at all. This only proves the
competence of the engineers that developed them.

I miss those good old days. (Well, not really, my 800XL is hooked up
to my big TV in the living room, and when modern PCs start to piss me off
too much, I fire up a nice game of Pac-Man or Dig-Dug :) )

[Russg]

(Top post here.)
All hail Jack Tramiel
All hail Nolan Bushnell
All hail (enter C64 engineer here)
All hail Jay Miner (Atari engineer)
I don't know what the hail.
Both are fantastic machines.
I just don't have any more room for
junk, so I don't collect more than
one.
I still am amazed by the machine
and learn new things 26 years after
my first purchase.
The Coleco Adam was my first purchase.
After three smokers on first startup
I returned the Adams and took my
son's advice and bought the Atari.
I haven't been sorry since.
My understanding of the Atari helps
me be facile with a PC.
Hardware people keep coming up with
new items that help keep them alive.
Atari can have a cart that allows
use of a SD card! I'm sure there's
comparable new hardware for the C=64.
Apples were, and still are, for more
uppity people. Oh, all hail Steve
Jobs and Wozniac.
(Darn, I promised myself not to
feed the troll.)

Post by Ben Tuddy
Why do you people still use ATARI 800 computers???
The C64 is far superior, it has 8 real sprites, better scrolling
and a real sound-synthesizer chip, the SID.
Why did anybody buy the inferior ATARI 800???
The ATARI 800 is crap, when it's compared to the C64.
Why don't you throw away your ATARI???